Today we learn what it means to be a more human brand, make connections with customers one-to-one, and how the marketing rebellion has changed what it takes to be a brand to this next generation of customers.
Today our guest is an internationally acclaimed keynote speaker, Mark Schaefer.
Mark is an author and strategy consultant for marketing. I have read several of his books, including his most recent one, Marketing Rebellion: The Most Human Company Wins. He is a college educator and has been a leader in this industry for years.
I’ve respected and looked up to Mark for a long time and am excited to share our interview with you today.
What is the Marketing Rebellion?
Brandon Birkmeyer: [00:02:24] I was hoping you could tell me a little bit more about how you find inspiration, and then how this idea of a marketing rebellion came to be.
Mark Schaefer: [00:02:49] You know, I was thinking today. I was out cutting my grass and I was thinking about how all my books sort of fit together. They provide this narrative that has sort of explored my thinking in terms of how marketing is changing. And I have been very fortunate in that it’s sort of reflected how the world is changing as well.
My first real book was called Return On Influence. That came out in 2012. This was the first book on influence marketing. And back then, nobody was talking about that. It wasn’t even a thing. But I recognize this idea that power was shifting from agencies, newspapers, and book publishers to people.
That was a very new idea back then. In fact, it was rejected by a lot of people. It was a very controversial idea. This idea that individual people could be counted on as influencers was a radical idea that caused a lot of fury when I was writing about it.
We have this opportunity to create our own power to influence. Well, how do you do that?
I wrote a book about creating content, about social media, and about blogging. Well then, all of a sudden, we have too much content because everybody’s doing it now. So how do we stand out in this crazy world? How do we get our content to move through an audience? That was my book, The Content Code.
That works for businesses. Can it work for an individual? Can an individual become known that same way? So, then I wrote Known.
The problem that I solve with this new book, Marketing Rebellion, is that with this power shift, the whole world of marketing has now moved over to our customers. It has completed the cycle that I started talking about in 2012. Now, here we are today in 2019, and it is complete. It is not just shifting. It has shifted.
And in those seven years since that first book came out, marketers really haven’t adapted to this idea. We have built our organizations to do something, but nobody’s looking up to say, “Wait a minute, is everything still the same? Are things still working the way we thought they were?” We have had our heads down, trying to do content and social media without really reflecting on reality.
That is what the book is about. It is a reality check to see what’s happening now. The customers are really in control of the sales funnel, of the customer journey, of the marketing process. It was not an easy book to write because it’s such a profound and provocative idea. I was fearful that there could be a backlash on the book, but people have embraced it. They have seen this coming and it makes sense.
How Has Marketing Changed
Brandon Birkmeyer: [00:06:19] Looking back to when you first got into marketing versus where it is now, how have you seen things change? You’ve talked about how it’s changed for consumers but it’s also interesting to see how the marketing professionals and how marketing as a profession has changed and how maybe we are behind.
Mark Schaefer: [00:06:58] Or has it changed? That’s my biggest concern, really. One of my favorite quotes in the book is from Chris Savage, the CEO of Wistia. He says our culture is our marketing. And that is a big problem today. The culture has not kept up with the pulse of the world.
Our company cultures have not kept up with the pulse of popular culture and our consumers. It is a leadership issue. There is no such thing as a grassroots organizational change. That must come from the top.
So, my biggest concern is that they have not changed and there is organizational resistance built in.
I was blown away by an ad agency that really gets it. A company that I featured in the book, Giant Spoon. They are doing this experiential marketing. Their mantra is we’re an advertising agency that aspires to never make an ad.
I really think that is poignant. We need to look at young people like the leaders of Giant Spoon to show us a new way. The world is not changing fast enough.
More of Mark’s Back Story
Brandon Birkmeyer: [00:10:45] This idea of customer experience and of a more human approach to marketing has been a theme for you and your content. Where does this passion come from to explore that? And how did you get into marketing. You seem to have found this thing that you are intensely curious about consistently.
Mark Schaefer: [00:11:30] Well, you know, I have reflected on that a little bit. I think part of my perspective comes from my blue-collar roots. My grandfather was a plumber. That’s where I learned marketing. He never took out an ad in his whole life. It was all based on his reputation.
My grandfather knew the only thing he had was his reputation. And if he did everything he could to protect his reputation and serve his customers, people would tell stories about him that would lead to more business. When a customer could not pay my grandfather, he would do work for a chicken, or for sticks of wood.
He was a social person. Whenever he would finish a job, he’d sit down with the homeowner and have a beer with them. He was always building those relationships. He showed up and was active in his community. And that is where we are today.
I think I have an advantage because that is the world that I came from. I did not grow up in a penthouse in New York, looking down at everybody. I grew up in a two-bedroom house with one bathroom and eight people in it. So, I have a different view of the world. It’s a humble view of the world that I think serves me well in where we are today.
A New Approach to Storytelling
Brandon Birkmeyer: [00:15:21] One of the things you’ve talked about in some of your articles is that there’s this idea of storytelling, which has been one of the larger pushes in our industry for a long time. A lot of marketers are looking to change people’s minds. What is your take on that?
Mark Schaefer: [00:16:11] There’s still room to advertise and do PR. But I think we have to step back and respect people. In today’s world, almost every consumer has the accumulated knowledge of the human race in the palm of their hand. And we do not have to change them.
They are very capable of making up their own mind. And if you look at where the best marketing is occurring today, you will find brands that are saying, “We believe in you and we want you to believe in us. We stand with you in this area. We are going to help you along in this area.” Instead of changing customers, they are walking alongside customers.
That is where marketing is going. The result might be the same. We still need to sell more stuff eventually, or our companies will die. But I think the trajectory, the mindset, and the tactics are going to be significantly different. It is already happening.
The view I present in Marketing Rebellion is, this is what marketing will be. And we have no choice. We just have no choice, but to respect the people where they are. Respect people, where they stand and help them.
Brandon Birkmeyer: [00:18:57] I like the idea that if you are telling a story, it needs some kind of emotional component to connect and to resonate and to move somebody. But maybe those stories start to come from the customer instead of something that’s designed by a brand.
Mark Schaefer: [00:19:16] There is so much hype out there about the arc of our story, and starting with our why. People don’t care. They really don’t care. They care about getting by today. They care about the arc of their story.
They care about their why. And I think the best storytelling will make the customer the hero.
They will put the customer first. It used to be that our brand, our story, was what we were telling people. And now our brand, and our story, is what people are telling each other. That requires a different mindset.
Our customers are the marketers. They are making our product work or not work. The new mindset is, if the customer’s in control, how do we help customers become the marketers? That is what a marketing department should be focused on today.
Becoming a More Personal Brand
Brandon Birkmeyer: [00:20:21] For the entrepreneurs out there that might be marketing for the first time, are there some core lessons that they could take from this book or from this philosophy that they could start implementing right now?
Mark Schaefer: [00:20:44] I think small businesses and entrepreneurs have a huge advantage right now. It’s back to what we talked about at the beginning, this idea of culture.
And that’s why these big brands are dying. These legacy brands that I grew up with are dying and the advertising agencies are dying and laying people off because these legacy brands don’t use them anymore. And we do not see ads like we used to. And I think instinctively what a lot of young people know today is that there’s power in the personal brand and that the corporate brand today is really the personal brand today.
I believe that one of the reasons why Tesla has a higher market value than Ford motor company, that’s been around more than a hundred years is because of Elon Musk. There is a vision. There is a personality. We can believe in him.
So increasingly the personal brand is the brand.
It is a lot easier for an entrepreneur to create that sort of personal brand with an emotional connection than some big retailer or automotive company.
Getting out and really knowing your customers, bringing people together, and creating events where they can see you. That’s the difference between listening to a song and going to a live concert with your friends. You have this emotional bond with that event, and with that band that will never go away.
There are lots of opportunities where small businesses can implement better, faster, and more effectively than big companies.
RELATED: Build your personal brand with the Content Marketing Starter Guide.
Finding Your Alpha Audience Today
Brandon Birkmeyer: [00:24:02] In your previous book, you talked about alpha buyers. What is the role of alpha buyers for this consumer that is taking ownership of the brand?
Mark Schaefer: [00:25:05] The power in digital marketing today comes from the transmission of content. There is no economic value in content or social media if people don’t see it and share it.
We need a story. We need content. We need to build an audience on social media. But, that’s a waste of money if nobody is seeing what we do. The people who actually share your content, they’re advocates for you. That’s the alpha audience.
In Marketing Rebellion, I talk about the decline of loyalty. Research shows across 80 different industries, on average, only 13% of our customers are loyal. 87% shop around and McKinsey found that in 90% of those industries they looked at, there’s no loyalty at all.
So job number one is (if you’re lucky enough to have an alpha audience) to have people who really love you, who are sharing your content, you’ve got to treat them like Kings and Queens.
You’ve got to find them and reward them. And that might mean getting your head out of a social media dashboard and looking at mentions and likes. You need to look at the individuals. What are people saying out there? Even for big companies, we’re not talking about millions of people here. It’s dozens or hundreds at the most that are really moving your content.
So don’t be lazy marketers. Get out there and see. Finding out who is your alpha audience is job number one. Pick up the phone and call them.
Branding Vs. Selling
Brandon Birkmeyer: [00:34:05] Do you believe that branding or selling is more important long-term for a business and why?
Mark Schaefer: [00:34:20] Oh, definitely branding. I think branding in this age is more important than ever. Before people buy, they have to be aware. And they don’t want to be sold. They are tired of being sold to. They’re tired of being advertised to.
That’s one of the lessons we need to take from my book is that customers want to be left alone. They want you to be there when they need you, but they don’t want to be pestered.
They don’t want lead-nurturing in their life, or spam and robocalls. In this world of the shop-around customer, the most important thing is to stay in that consideration set.
And that doesn’t necessarily come from selling. It comes from what does that brand mean to me? Why is this relevant? And why are my friends talking about it? Why do I seem to see this everywhere?
Long term, the branding is the selling.
Brandon Birkmeyer: [00:35:26] With spam and mass communication, is there a better way to connect in a more human way?
Mark Schaefer: [00:35:41] I think it’s really easy. It just starts with realizing that you are a customer too. Everyone buys thousands of different products over the course of a year. And we know what we like, and we know what we do not like. We know when we’re being annoyed and when people are jeopardizing our personal information.
The first thing to do is look at what you’re doing in your company. And if you’re doing things that people hate, stop it.
That is the first step toward human centered marketing. The second step is putting yourself in the shoes of the customers. Figure out what your customers really love. Where do you fit in that customer ecosystem? How do your values align with their values and how do you communicate that?
That is how we would connect to our friends. We would not show up uninvited or interrupt them. We would talk and help, and build relationships. That is what people want and that is what will be rewarded in the future.
Examples of Companies Doing Marketing Right
Brandon Birkmeyer: [00:38:08] You mentioned a few brands today and also in the book that are doing it right. Do you want to tell a story about one of them that is doing marketing the right way in some aspects.
Mark Schaefer: [00:38:26] Well there are really so many.
And again, I sort of see a pattern that it is oftentimes the new people on the scene who are just creating their businesses in sort of an instinctive way, but it’s the right way. And my favorite company right now is Glossier because it really encompasses every single thing of human centered marketing.
Glossier is a company that was started by a blogger named Emily Weiss. She was the brand. Before, any logo, slogan, or store, she created this company. She said, “I wanted to create a company that was your friend that just talked to you like a friend.” What is more human than that!
100% of her business occurs through word of mouth. She talks to her customers. She makes the customer the hero of her story. When you go on the Glossier website, the models and the pictures are her customers. I just 100% love what Emily is doing. There are lessons there from Glossier that every company should be studying because that’s how you win today.
What’s Next for Mark Schaefer?
Brandon Birkmeyer: [00:46:37] What’s your next big audacious goal for the year.
Mark Schaefer: [00:46:42] I want to direct my life in a way where things are starting up, not winding down. One thing I feel good about is helping people. When people say I have impacted them in some way, or I’ve helped help them some way, that’s the most important thing.
I don’t really know what that looks like now, but I think it will involve bringing people together.
Website: www.businessesgrow.com
Book: Marketing Rebellion: The Most Human Business Wins
Twitter: @MarkWSchaefer
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